Interview:
Engström on ESA

Born Karlskrona, Sweden, 1939.
Masters degree, 1964, then PhD, 1971, Stockholm University.
1965-70, ESRO fellow, Culham Laboratory, UK.
1970, joined Teleutredningar in Stockholm.
1972-85, President, Swedish Space Corporation (SSC).
1985-94, joined ESA, directing Columbus project.
1994-2001, ESA Director of Launchers.

ESA: How and why did you come to work for ESA?

Frederik Engström

I was at the Ministerial Conference in Rome in January 1985. A space station and Ariane were on the agenda and it was decided to start up those programmes and I realised that they were actually going to go ahead. In Sweden at that time, the relationship between the Swedish Space Corporation and the Minister of Industry was at freezing point. The post office and telecommunications service had arranged an audit because they claimed that I had hidden costs, then they found in fact that I had not. On the contrary!

Anyway, this put me in a very difficult position but then I saw that they needed a Director at ESA, and I applied. It was good timing, because a more technocratic management, appropriate for the Swedish Space Corporation at that time, was emerging.

Mountains had been moved and many of the difficult European turns had been made and we now had a long straight road stretching out in front of us and the question was how to keep the car on the road and maintain speed.

The SSC people did a great job and a much better one than I would have done. I think I made a well-timed move. The last thing I did there was sell an oil-spill detection system to the Chinese. This was an airborne surveillance system, which can still be found everywhere even now, coastguards still use it in Sweden, Holland, the United States.

When selling to the Chinese, I went to Beijing where we negotiated for three or four days, whereas negotiations usually last three months. While I was there ESA Director General Reimar Lüst called me to arrange a meeting. The meeting, on a Saturday morning in Paris, went well and I started on 1 October 1985.

ESA: How did you find being a Director in ESA?

Frederik Engström

In my view the Director of an ESA programme, at least the programmes I was in charge of, such as the space station and Ariane, is a political job. You have to understand what everyone is doing. You are there to sell the programme, all the time, all day, especially at Council and Programme Board meetings. You have to go and visit each delegation because they can feel left out, but when there are 16 delegations, that takes time! Just going round and explaining things is very time-consuming. I think that for the Director General it is even worse!

ESA: What did you find the most interesting work at ESA?

Frederik Engström

The International Space Station was a real challenge. This was before the accidents that slowed down the programme. It is at last coming together now, more than 20 years after the start of the programme. That is certainly too long; programmes should never take that long. But I learnt a lot. ESA was a completely different world for me.

On the good side, you had a big machinery of engineers, very competent people, you snapped your fingers and hey presto the work was done! They were well organised and whatever you wanted they could produce in no time. A German-English crew worked on the space station programme and they were excellent. They had the experience of Spacelab. They also knew all about the American way of working and so on. That was enjoyable. They always had solutions.

A more frustrating aspect - and it took me some time to realise this - was that even though you might have a lot of influence, in fact you took few final big decisions yourself. All decision-making was complicated. There was manoeuvring, between the delegations and the other Directors.

Lüst and Administration were just a joy to work with. Administration at that time was really supportive. I realised afterwards that I had proposed things that were firsts, such as an industrial proposal for 1.2-1.3 billion Accounting Units. This had never been done before, but we succeeded. Administration worked very well at that time.

ESA: Is there anything you wished you had done or not done in your involvement in space?

Frederik Engström

There were a number of decisions taken in the launchers area that I fought, such as using Soyuz from Kourou. Maybe this was misplaced opposition. I can see what is happening, though, and the situation is as I predicted. To keep Ariane going, they have to subsidise it heavily. If the money used for that had been put into development work instead, then you would have got something out of it.

One thing that I regret and that never materialised was that I proposed a policy for launchers in Europe whereby we should continue with Ariane but make it a family of launchers built using the same hardware, the same guidance system and the same electronics; you could thus develop a smaller launcher (a Soyuz type) at very low cost. Above all, you would have an industry that was kept together and was competent and did not cost governments a fortune every time there was a launch.

I worry that Europeans are going to lose faith in continuing to subsidise to such an extent, especially the smaller countries such as Sweden, and then the French will be left on their own. The UK is not in there anyway. The Germans are wondering why they should finance this, even if it is EADS that is involved now. The rationale is not an inherently sensible one, so in the long run it has become very difficult to argue in favour of it. The real cost of a launch is maybe €300 million, but unfortunately we can only charge €100m and thus need €200m in government support. It is difficult to keep enthusiasm going in such programmes. It will work for a few more years. I regret that my proposal was not taken up.

ESA: What lessons can you pass on to future space shapers?

Frederik Engström

You always think that you could have been more clear-sighted or more flexible. You need to be open to what is happening elsewhere. When you are in project work, you do not have the time to read about what is happening in the rest of the world and in any case you can only learn so much from reading about what other people are doing. You need to go out and actually see people and be able to ask them why they are doing what they are doing and what they believe. Usually they will be very happy to tell you.